Outback-owning Oppos lend me your ears!

"MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW) 04/25/2018 at 15:41 • Filed to: None

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I’ve been looking at 00-09-ish Outbacks to replace my Matrix as a daily in the next year or so, and I have some questions.

The reason I’m looking at them is because to my knowledge they are the only vehicle that meets all of the following requirements:

-can tow 3000lbs

-not a truck/SUV

-available with 3 pedals

Also, I have a bit of a soft spot for Subi’s, as I learned to drive stick on an 03 Forester.

My objective is a reliable daily that can, a few times a year, pull my 2,000lb track car on a roughly 400lb two wheel dolly and not completely lose it’s shit, while also not being a truck/SUV.

Track car for reference:

The conundrum I currently face in my brain is which version to go with.

2.5 N/A - easy to find with a manual, inexpensive, mechanically simple (easy to work on), but might struggle with towing and is not exactly known for longevity.

2.5 XT turbo - difficult but not impossible to find with a manual, more expensive, mechanically complex with dubious longevity, but will tow no problem

3.0 H6 - easy to find, dead reliable compared to the 2.5's, best engine for towing, mechanically simple compared to turbo.....but no manual option at all.

So oppo please share with me your Subaru wisdom and help me with this problem that has been consuming my brain.

random001 > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:03

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From what I remember from my time as an outback owner, you’ll need the 3.6R to tow 3000#, otherwise, I think they’re limited to 2500 for the 3.0 and 2000 for all the 2.5, even the turbo. I could be wrong, though, since I was mostly looking at the 2010+, which I had, briefly. I would go that route anyway, they’re much nicer inside, to me at least.

I am, however, 95% sure the 2.5 can’t pull 3000# well.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:03

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Those manuals aren’t exactly the pinnacle of automotive excellence. If the 3.0 is the better fit overall for your needs I’d give good thought to settling for that with the automatic. Especially if you have a track toy for all kinds of jalop activities.

I had a legacy GT wagon with the manual (basically the same as the outback XT) – the clutch is very finicky and likes to eat itself, and the engine troubles are well known (although the turbo is infectious and fun). Especially if you plan on towing with it I don’t know if that turbo setup is the best idea.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 04/25/2018 at 16:11

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Giving up a manual is really hard for me, as I haven’t owned an auto in over a decade. All 4 cars in my household are manuals, and I love them, to me even a crappy car can be made fun with three pedals. I just wish so badly that the H6 had the option. But it definitely does seem like in every other respect it’s probably the one for the job. I need to see if I can get my hands on one to drive and see if the auto would be completely soul-sucking.

BeaterGT > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:19

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I’d say pick up this unicorn , but it looks like someone already did just that. Clean examples get picked up very quickly. I agree with e30s2k, I wouldn’t tow anything heavy with my Legacy GT with the manual. The H6 seems more in line with what you need, albeit not exactly what you want.

HammerheadFistpunch > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:21

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For me if I was in your shoes I would be looking at a later 3.6.

the 2.5 is going to have HG problems, the turbo will have turbo problems (seriously, almost everyone I know with an LGT of that vintage has had to replace their turbo or their turbo munched their engine) and while the 3.0 is good the 3.6 is more better.

Duck Duck Grey Duck FTMFW! > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:24

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Have you looked at the fifth generation (09-14) with the H6? They don’t have the CVT transmission. They have a regular auto. Not sure on tow capacity though. I have a 2012 2.5 with the CVT. The interior is amazing! I have a Limited so fancy interior.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:27

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See if you can find a V6 Toyota RAV4. I’m over subaru’s. I’ve had several and they have brilliant AWD systems but the engine’s just suck.

TahoeSTi > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:38

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My vote is for an Outback XT 5-speed, took me a while to find one but eventually did and they are totally worth it. No matter what you get I highly recommend upgrading the springs in the back (a must) and the front (optional) as well as adding some of the Chassis braces.

I’m running Rallytech 0" lift springs up front and King Spring 0" lift in the back. The back is a must it stops the bounce.

For towing i would also upgrade the brakes to either Legacy GT specs or the Wilwood kit from BrakeSwap.com and maybe a Down pipe to keep EGTs down.

The transmission on these is fine but you can always upgrade to an STi 6-speed if you need more strength.

If i stay out of boost i 27-28mpg freeway....sure you could do better but I tend to drive a bit fast.

TahoeSTi > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:39

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Don’t give up the manual. There are extra braces and supports you can add externally to the factory 5 speed if you’re really worried about it. Also the center diff is usually what goes first and those can be replaced with out pulling the transmission out of the car.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > random001 04/25/2018 at 16:40

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The google says 2700-3000 depending on trim, more than enough for what I’m doing. To be fair, that 03 Forester 2.5 my parents had towed their heavy steel/wood trailer full of mulch or two motorcycles just fine and made it to 180k before dying due to an incompetent mechanic.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > HammerheadFistpunch 04/25/2018 at 16:41

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The 3.6 is more powerful and doesn’t require premium fuel, but prices are higher too.

TahoeSTi > HammerheadFistpunch 04/25/2018 at 16:41

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The turbo issue is just an oil blockage becuase of the mesh filter in the oil like to the turbo easy preventative fix and BNR turbos has some affordable upgrade options when they do blow.

Head gaskets seem to be fine on cars that are well maintained and tuned safely. With these boxer motors all the coolant doesn’t drain from the heads when stopped so it’s important to keep it fresh.

BeaterGT > HammerheadFistpunch 04/25/2018 at 16:42

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How you gonna curse my stock turbo like that?!

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 04/25/2018 at 16:43

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RAV4 maxes at 2000lb towing capacity.

EDIT: looks like if you get one with a tow package it goes up to 3500. That’s worth considering.

cmill189 - sans Volvo > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:46

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You definitely want the 3.0 for towing that much. The 2.5 N/A is barely adequate for towing 1500 pounds without overheating or destroying the clutch/brakes. H6 models have slightly larger brakes like the XT.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > TahoeSTi 04/25/2018 at 16:47

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The turbo motor reliability is the biggest problem for me. Just about every EJ25 owner I’ve ever talked to has had major engine failure.

CobraJoe > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:53

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I owned a ‘05 LGT for a couple years. I’m not sure how well the 5 speed would handle towing, but it was supposedly stronger than the 5 speed in the early WRXs that were known to break. The turbo engine is definitely powerful enough to tow, and the gearing is appropriate, but I don’t think those pistons would live very long if you bogged the engine down.

I’d vote to look for an H6 instead. I’ve only test drove one, and it was a noticeable improvement in low speed drivability thanks to the lack of turbo lag.

Have you considered the Tribeca? If you can get past the looks of the early one, a towing package one is rated for 3500 pounds, and they did not hold their value very well.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > BeaterGT 04/25/2018 at 16:53

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What was the unicorn? Can’t even tell from the link anymore. Guess that’s how unicorns, dolphins, etc. are I guess.

TahoeSTi > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 16:57

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If you run the right oil (Rottella T6) and change the the coolant frequently....every 3 years or so, they are pretty reliable. I also wouldn’t suggest tacking our a EJ255 to red line every day, the EJ257 has better bearings and holds up to that kind of abuse better.

There are also preventative things you can do when it comes to turbo oil lines. And if a turbo goes out they aren’t that hard to replace and you can buy upgraded rebuilt ones from BNR Turbos.

I have an 06 STi and an 06 Outback XT, and almost all my friend have some EJ25 car WRX, or outbacks but they all also maintain them above factory recommendations.

Plus a blown motor is just the starting point for a built motor.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 17:04

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FWIW I have driven the RAV4 numerious times in rental spec and it’s quite nice.

TahoeSTi > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 17:07

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Not sure how well this works but could be something for peace of mind....also the gear set for the legacy and outback is strong then the early WRXs that had the most issues with transmissions.

https://www.fastwrx.com/products/mach-v-transmission-reinforcement-brace-kit-subaru-5mt

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > TahoeSTi 04/25/2018 at 17:08

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This would be my daily, so it wouldn’t be a build or mod project. I need reliability. I already have two vintage cars to take up my wrenching time haha.

Amoore100 > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 17:08

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I was in the market for one of these Outbacks too but eventually the engine issues drove us to get one of these:

Bit of a mixed bag reliability wise—the fundamentals are all rock solid since it’s a pretty old platform, but an AC compressor bearing went last December and took a bit of cash to fix. Other than that it’s a white block with a timing chain so the only potential weak link could be the Aisin six-speed, but we haven’t seen any issues yet at 110K miles.

I’m not sure of your price range since this was about twenty grand, but you’d be hard pressed to get more niceties for 20K anywhere and it’ll tow up to 3300 not to mention the T6 (especially with the Polestar tune) will scoot you to sixty in nigh-on six seconds give or take. It’s pretty jiggly in the corners but I’ve never driven anything else that’s quite as comfortably incredible in commuting or cruising—a nudge on the turbo and a nicely stuffed Scandinavian sofa make just about any scenario relaxing.

Less optioned ‘70s are in the 10-15K price range with the 3.2 and FWD/AWD and are certainly a bit less punchy although it’s still a smooth, smooth straight six and that cushy interior. The only downside is it will never be had with a stick in the States, but for me (who was also shopping with pretty much the same criteria) the other factors eventually won over a 3.6R Outback; that and my Mother feels many times better about me piloting a Volvo than a Subaru, no matter how many five-star ratings the latter may receive.

random001 > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 17:09

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Could be the infamous USA underrating towing capacity ploy...

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 17:11

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I also think you can get a manual RAV4, though for some reason I seem to remember you couldn’t get a manual and a V6.

TahoeSTi > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 17:12

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Mines a daily....but i modify anything I drive, you can pull the motor out of these in about 30-45 minutes. You can replace a CV shaft in about the same time. They are really easy to work on.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 17:17

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https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/733311971/overview/

Not bad IMO for about $11k.

t0ast > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 17:19

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‘05 XT w/ manual owner here. Mine’s totally stock and has had no significant issues at about 105k apart from slightly above average wear and tear on some parts (CV joints, wheel bearings, headlights, etc.). That said, I bought mine in 2012 with <35k miles on the clock, so all of its weaknesses were well-known by then and the car was young enough that they could be dealt with proactively. Here’s the short list of foibles:

Turbo oil feed line banjo bolt: #1 turbo killer right here. This bolt contains a fine wire mesh which can clog up and starve your turbo if the oil hasn’t been changed religiously. Subaru actually put out a TSB to decrease the oil change interval from 5k miles to 3750 for XTs, likely for this very reason. Some swap the bolt for one w/o a mesh (found in similar vintage WRX/STI if memory serves), some (myself included) get a fresh bolt and start aggressively following that updated oil change interval. Both are probably fine.

Up pipe cat: #2 turbo killer. Something that can potentially break apart sitting upstream from the turbo... what could go wrong? Either remove it or get an ‘08+ (I think) XT since they don’t have one.

OEM rear shocks are garbage. They’re under-dampened and one was already leaking when I bought it. It’s worth noting that the previous gen’s rear shocks bolt right in and are a bit more aggressively dampened. Or just get an aftermarket pair and call it good. Even the KYBs I replaced them with were a vast improvement.

Rear alignment is important. Geometry is such that compression = toe out, which can be downright unpleasant on tall, floppy suspension. Towing would probably exacerbate it even further. Just keep the shocks healthy, dial the toe in a bit, and you’ll probably be fine.

Timing belt. Obviously needs to be serviced if/when it’s due (every ~100k or ~8.5 years).

I can’t speak to towing, but it’s been pretty good for the daily grind and 3-4 person road trips. Fuel economy isn’t great (I see 19-23 MPG), and neither is the agricultural-feeling manual transmission, but the turbo gives the XT somewhat of a goofy character and keeps things moderately entertaining if you keep it in boost. It’s plenty spacious, the ride is pleasant both on road and off, and comfort is at least marginally above average IMO. The interior switchgear leaves a bit to be desired and the partially-auto-all-the-time HVAC system can go die in a fire, but nothing electrical has failed on me yet apart from one seat heater.

Honestly though, mine’s a bit of a unique case, so unless you want another project, I’d be somewhat nervous about the prospect of picking up another XT unless it was a very low mileage later model year or at least a thoroughly-documented example. The manual transmission, while nice to have, is mediocre enough that I’d personally be fine trading it for the added peace of mind that’d come with the 3.0.

BeaterGT > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 04/25/2018 at 17:20

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Oh yeah, whoops! It was a dark grey 08 Outback XT with a manual and only 40k miles and a clean Carfax.

BeaterGT > TahoeSTi 04/25/2018 at 17:23

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Agreed. Regular oil changes are very important with these cars. I don’t even do the Rotella T6 but I have had no turbo problems over the last 55k and I beat on my car fairly regularly.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > BeaterGT 04/25/2018 at 17:26

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Ah those pop up every now and then out here, but that mileage is crazy low.

This 08 local to me looks pretty nice, but the price is painful especially at that mileage.

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/d/2008-subaru-outback-xt/6568533654.html

This 05 with lower miles reminds me of my 05 legacy GT on the inside, but I know I’m lusting after them only because I don’t have one anymore (and this is even more expensive!)

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/d/2005-subaru-outback-25-xt/6552961638.html

BeaterGT > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 04/25/2018 at 17:32

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It was exactly like that first 2008 but with 100k less miles! And it was only 3 grand more too!

At least the 05 was recently serviced I guess? I wouldn’t pay that price either. Good on that shop for keeping these cars on the road though. I would love to replace my 05 Legacy GT but I have no idea with what so I’m just gonna keep tinkering with it. So I’m somewhat familiar with how you’re feeling

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > BeaterGT 04/25/2018 at 18:17

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Ooh how long have you had your GT? Sedan or wagon? I sold mine before I moved to Oregon and had more cars than we needed. Wish I still had that thing – ran great but was always nervous about engine/turbo problems given how much you hear about them. Mine had 140k on the clock at the time too.

I keep getting drawn to WRX hatchbacks as an option for my next car (say a 2014…they’re holding their value nicely and probably will in to the future given that it’s the last hatch available + the more charming engine) – but not sure I want to revisit those risks. I guess what you pay during ownership in maintenance/repairs, you get back through ridiculously strong resale value.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > TahoeSTi 04/25/2018 at 18:21

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I think I’m more worried about engine problems with the 2.5 than trans issues.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 04/25/2018 at 18:23

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No V6 manual, but the Outback H6 is auto-only as well. I am definitely warming to the idea of a Rav4 sport. Throw on a nicer exhaust to let the 2GR wail a bit and it would actually be pretty nice.

TahoeSTi > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/25/2018 at 18:28

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Engine issues are overblown by Subaru Bros who don’t maintain their cars, and beat on them.

BeaterGT > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 04/25/2018 at 18:33

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Will have had it 5 years next month and it’s a Limited sedan. She needs some freshening up due to rough NJ winters but that’s half the fun :) Here’s an old post with some pictures. Link

You also get back one of the more exciting driving experiences from a modern car! I too have looked at newer WRXs, but would be nice to get into something other than a Subaru next. Looked at Audi S4s for a while but talk about a hit to the wallet. Looks like I’m driving the LGT “into the ground.” What did you end up selling yours for?

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > TahoeSTi 04/25/2018 at 19:50

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That’s certainly part of it. Same with the 7M-GTE problems and the Mazdaspeed3 turbo problems. While poor maintenance and modifying certainly exacerbates the problem, 2.5's making it to 200k without major problems is almost unheard of.

TahoeSTi > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 04/26/2018 at 09:37

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Buy one with a blown motor and drop a rebuilt ej257 in. EJ257 short blocks are $1700-1900 new from Subaru. Still cheaper than a new car. Rebuilt long blocks are $3200. I’m sure EJ255s could be cheaper. Other options are find an EJ20x from japan for like $900. https://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM-SUBARU-EJ20X-Turbo-Engine-2004-2009-Legacy-GT-Forester-XT-Outback-Turbo-Baja/263622351999?hash=item3d611ddc7f:g:JZoAAOSw3gJZEjaA&vxp=mtr

Or just do what i did and find a low mileage one. 200k is still 120k away for my 06 outback. I’ll most likely put a new long block in with better internals before I hit 200k
 

.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > BeaterGT 04/26/2018 at 11:14

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That’s a nice color! Those sedans look so smart, such a great combination of performance and looks. I didn’t replace my wagon with anything, really. It was just my wife and I sharing a 1BR apartment in San Francisco having to deal with street parking – and we had 3 cars. Her Jeep, my E30, and the Legacy. She had a ~5 mile drive to work and I took public transit. Having to juggle street parking restrictions for 3 cars when we really only needed one didn’t make sense. So the Subaru had to go (it was either that or the E30…right or wrong I just couldn’t let that car go). Still have the E30 as a fun car, just recently had another thread about my current considerations of trading it out for something else that gets driven more – link .

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > BeaterGT 04/26/2018 at 11:22

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p.s. – yeah Audis are so expensive. Between the price of purchase, maintenance costs, and depreciation hit (even if reliability has supposedly improved?) it’s just too much for my wallet right now. Out here in the PNW it’s actually getting pretty tough to justify anything other than a Subaru. Those things hold their value so well it’s ridiculous. At this point my next car options will either be something like a WRX or some kind of more special BMW that is near the bottom of the depreciation curve (E46/E90 M3, E91 wagon, etc.) – that’ll bring added maintenance/reliability costs, but at least the fun and value retention/appreciation could help offset that.

BeaterGT > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 04/26/2018 at 11:27

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Thanks, I really dig the proportions of the car as well. And sorry, I meant how much $ did you get for your legacy?

I’d hold onto that E30! The ZHP sounds expensive but I’m not a BMW guru by any means.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > BeaterGT 04/26/2018 at 12:14

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Oh whoops. I sold it for $9500, about 3 years ago at this point.

BeaterGT > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 04/26/2018 at 13:00

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Damn! That’s about 4 grand more than I would expect to get for my own.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > BeaterGT 04/26/2018 at 13:14

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Wagons do seem to go for quite a bit more I think, especially given that they’re much harder to find with a stick.